INTERVIEW FOR PAGANNEWS.COM
(Weds, April 28, 2004)
Thank you Elizabeth, these are great answers! I will get this posted within
the next couple of days and let you both know as soon as it is online.
Thanks again,
Vaughan
________________________________________________________________________
From: vaughan [mailto:vaughan@pagannews.com]
Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 10:48 PM
To: Laura Lee Mattingly
Subject: Re: PaganNews.com Interview for May
Hi Laura,
Here are the interview questions for Elizabeth Hazel (Tarot Decoded). I would also like to get a
photo to go with the article.
Thanks!
Vaughan
__________________________________________________________________________
Q: Why did you feel this book needed to be written?
Through contact with tarot readers beginning their studies, both in person and through internet
tarot groups, it was very evident that (first) people were familiar with the term "tarot dignities"
but did not know what they were, and (second) there was no textbook dedicated to this subject.
Tarot dignities are a family of techniques that assist tarotists in integrating the meanings of the
cards in a spread. These techniques encompass very simple and obvious methods as well as
deeply complex methods that require extensive study and memorization to master. Some tarot
dignity techniques rely upon their cartomantic features (numbers and suits) while others rely
upon their occult subtext (astrological attributions, for example, that may or may not be printed
on the card's face).
My goal in writing this book was to provide a single text that encompasses the entire range of
dignity techniques, and presents them in a manner that a reader can study at their own pace. My
hope is that "Tarot Decoded" can be used by individuals who are working alone to master the
tarot, as well as by teachers who are giving instruction in tarot.
Q: Do you need to have a good understanding of the tarot already to benefit from it?
"Tarot Decoded" does not include a list of card meanings, but instead focuses on reading
techniques. People who have studied the meanings of the cards (whether these are memorized or
not) have acquired some understanding of the cards, and are ready to learn basic card integration
techniques.
For tarotists who have a good grasp of basic card meanings and are ready to learn how to derive
more meaning from their spreads, more useful spread forms, and develop a personal reading
style, this book is perfect.
Q: How did you become interested in tarot and astrology?
I was a child during the 1960's, and planet glyphs and zodiac sign glyphs were plastered all over
everything during that era, courtesy of Peter Max and other contemporary artists. The Fifth
Dimension was singing "This is the Dawning of the Age of Aquarius," and it was very popular to
begin a conversation by asking the other person's sun-sign. Unless you lived in a box, it was hard
to miss all of this interest in astrology and the occult that was booming during this time period.
But - being a strange child - I actually found out about tarot cards by reading the Encyclopedia
Britannica, in the entry for "Cards." I saw the cards with pictures, read the description and said
to myself, "these are for me." Of course, wanting to get them was different than actually being
able to find them. It took me a few years of diligent shopping to locate a tarot deck (my first
deck was David Palladini's Aquarian Tarot), and about a month to realize that these were not
very deep. I went back and got the Thoth deck.
From the symbols included on the Thoth deck, it was obvious that astrology was - or could be -
merged with the tarot. I was quite fortunate to find a wonderful astrology teacher, Dr. Rilma
Buckman, to whom the book is dedicated. Tarot opened a door to the world, but astrology
opened the door to the universe.
Although I've been a professional tarotist and astrologer for many, many years, I continue to
study both diligently. New techniques and possibilities for use help keep tarot and astrology as
fresh and fascinating for me.
Q: Is there a particular tarot deck (e.g. rider, thoth etc.) that you prefer to use for readings?
Well, to be honest, I'm a bit of a deck slut. I move around. I like new decks. I go through phases
with favorites. I disliked the RWS until the Universal Waite (recolored by Mary Hanson
Roberts) was issued. The Thoth is an old favorite, but I don't use it for clients unless they request
it. I still like the Aquarian deck, too. Basically, I like a good, strong reading
deck. To clarify this, I mean a deck with clear symbols and good colors. They don't have to be
RWS or Thoth clones, as long as the symbolism is good.
I'm not too keen on program decks - dragons, hobbits, King Arthur, etc., where a good literary
idea is bent like a pretzel to fit tarot symbolism. Sometimes it works, but mostly it
doesn't. Currently I'm using Norbert Loesche's Cosmic Tarot, and The World Spirit Tarot, for
most ordinary client readings. But like any good tarot slut, I've got hundreds of decks, plan on
getting hundreds more, and hope at some point to get my own original tarot deck published (The
Vala Tarot).
Q: Recent tarot decks (i.e. the last 100 years) have followed imagery and concepts from the
Golden Dawn and The Qabbalah. I'm thinking particularly here of the Rider-Waite decks, and
Aleister Crowley's Thoth Tarot. But Tarot have been extant at least since the 14th century, and
the hidden meaning in the cards may have been subtly different. It has been suggested, for
example that the earliest decks were a series of flashcards related to the story of the Knights
Templar and the Holy Grail, but no-one is really certain. Do you have any opinions or insights on
the origin of the Tarot, and the story or message it originally carried?
I need to clarify two assumptions - first, that the tarot cards were designed with forecasting as a
primary purpose, and second, that there are hidden meanings in early tarot art. There isn't any
real evidence that this is the case - the available evidence shows that tarot, or tarrochi, were a
playing deck used for a card game similar to bridge or euchre.
During the Renaissance, when tarot cards first appeared, there was a distinct resurgence of
interest in classical topics, as well as continuing interest in allegories. The Renaissance art world
was making controversial breaks from the flat perspective and relatively limited topic matter of
the medieval world (the Bible, the saints, and rich people). These artists were striking out in all
sorts of new directions in concepts, techniques and subject matter.
But artists have to eat and pay their rent! Until the printing press came along, card decks were
rendered by hand, so affordable to only wealthy patrons. Could there have been a subtext to the
symbolism? Surely. Especially if a patron had a special topical interest. The series of pictures
could have been biblical scenes, or based on the estates of life in Renaissance Italy, on the
stories of specific allegories, or even based on a story line from classical pagan or popular literature.
If a tarot-card painter was a member of an intellectual salon, like the one sponsored by the De
Medici in Firenze, there reasonably could have been an occult, metaphysical, or kabbalistic
subtext in the designs. But there is no written evidence found to date that supports this
conclusion. The first texts on using tarot for divinatory purposes were published in the 1780's
by Frenchmen. That leaves a period of about 300 or 400 years for speculation.
So what do I believe? I believe that eventually, some kind of direct, written evidence will surface
regarding a specific Renaissance-period deck. It might confirm the theory that the tarot were
designed with a subtext hidden in the symbolism, and created for use as a divinatory device. But
then again, it might not. We cannot project our 21st century minds into 14th or 15th century
minds with any accuracy, because it too often results in wishful thinking.
What is of greatest interest to me is the vigorous development of tarot since the 1890's, and the
tarot boom that has been evident since the 1980's. These are our own times, and it is clear that
the Tarot have something to say to contemporary culture. In my view, the divinatory Tarot have
descended from the occult thinkers of the 1780's and the critical Jupiter-Saturn conjunction that
took place early in that decade, as well as the discovery of Uranus. Jupiter is the ruler of
philosophy and religion, and Saturn rules form and containers. Uranus is a progenitor-creator
god associated with revolutionary ideas. The Tarot, as they are used today, are a container for
metaphysical thought conveyed through symbolism. The container, or form, remains relatively
stable, while the occult thought that fills it changes from generation to generation.
Q: In recent years, tarot decks have become very diverse in their imagery and themes. The Robin
Wood Tarot, The Tolkien Tarot, Gothic Tarot of Vampires are a few examples. Does this
diversity help people understand and appreciate the value of the tarot more, or is the message of
the cards lost in this process?
I've already stated that I'm not too keen on program decks, because they often fail to do more
than present a currently popular literary idea in a way that sells well. Some readers really enjoy
these decks. The Robin Wood Tarot should not be included in the list given above, because it is
truly an original rendering of tarot symbolism, not merely a regurgitation of Pamela Colman
Smith's artwork for the RWS deck.
Part of the problem with program decks is that they are executed by artists who are hired to do a
job, not necessarily by tarotists who labor to present a unique vision of the tarot, like Robin
Wood. The lack of tarot experience of an artist is, in most cases, glaringly evident, because of
their slavish fidelity to the RWS. And in this case, yes, the message of the symbolism can be
smothered by their efforts to make some poor hobbit juggle four coins.
This being said, the explosion of new tarot decks in the past few decades makes tarot much more
accessible to anyone who is interested in learning how to read them. If a person buys a deck
because the artwork appeals to them, great. If they find that they can't learn much from the LWB
(little white book), and pursue other books and decks in order to learn more, all the
better. Generally, folks are better off starting with a version of the RWS, as there are plenty of
books that use this deck for illustrations. People have to start somewhere, so a wide variety of
decks in a multitude of artistic presentations is a real plus.
Q: Can you recommend any good reference books or other sources for those wanting to learn
more about the tarot?
It really depends on what level the individual is ready for, and what they want to learn. "Tarot
Plain and Simple" by Anthony Lewis is a great book for raw beginners. Mary Greer's "Tarot For
Your Self" is a wonderful book that encourages people to experiment with the tarot, and learning
how to dig deeper into the symbolism for meanings. Rachel Pollack's "78 Degrees of Wisdom" is
a superb, intense discussion of card meanings.
One of my very favorite new tarot books is "Tarot for Self Discovery" by Nina Lee Braden. She
presents dozens of tarot exercises that can be used by people at every level of tarot experience
for deriving inner meaning and understanding. She gives excellent exercises for using the tarot
to get yourself out of mental ruts - I've used these more than once!
The Internet has an amazing range of sources for beginners. The first stop for anyone ready to do
some serious tarot deck or book shopping is the Tarot Passages site
(www.tarotpassages.com). This site provides reviews of books and decks, and deck reviews
include a few pictures of the cards. It also includes new spreads, interviews, and other articles, as
well as links to lots of other great tarot sites. Book reviews, tarot history information
and excellent articles can be found at Villa Revak (www.villarevak.org). For those interested in
networking and regular updates, the American Tarot Association's site (www.ata-tarot.com) has
information regularly updated, including a web-zine called Tarot Reflections.
For tarot shopping, I like to go to the Tarot Garden (www.tarotgarden.com) where there are
plenty of pictures of artwork, and an incredible range of available decks. I can't go there too
often, it’s just too tempting.
Q: Do you have any other projects lined up?
I'm working on a second book on specific methods for combining tarot and astrology. I've
written a fantasy fiction novel that I'm marketing around, and have an original song that is
attached to a film script currently being shown around Hollywood. Anything is possible! I'm a
typical Sagittarian, lots of irons in lots of fires. There are plenty of articles floating around, too,
and more of those in the works. I'd also like to get my tarot deck published and am seeking a
publisher for it.
Finally, here are the standard questions we ask everyone:
Q: What would you say has been your greatest achievement to date?
Surviving my teen years would be the most honest answer; writing "Tarot Decoded" would be
the most profound.
Q: If you could go back in your life and change one thing, what would it be?
I don't believe in regret - life is just too short. However, if I really could go back and re-do, I'd
get a bachelor's degree in business instead of a degree in music composition and theory.
Q: How would you want to be remembered?
On a personal level, as never being so serious or so cracked on some theory that I'd lose my
sense of humor, or fail to laugh at the ridiculous (especially myself when I'm being
ridiculous). On a professional level, as a practitioner and writer who added to the understanding
and development of tarot and astrology.
Q: Do you have a favorite author? who?
Oh, dear, this is not a question you want to ask a Sagittarian who reads a couple hundred books a
year! I adore Tom Robbins, Richard Adams, and Judith Merkle Riley, but worship at the feet of
Tolkien (I've read the trilogy every years since 1976). I revere Carlos Castaneda, too, and am
delighted by the fantastic paranoic flourishes of Robert Anton Wilson. On more somber days I
like Tacitus, Pliny and Suetonius, especially when they gossip about their contemporaries. The
list goes on....and on...and on.
Q: Do you have a favorite artist? who?
I can feel myself sliding down a hole - this question is as bad as the last! I've always loved the
pre-Raphaelites, even when they are trite. The colors just make me drool. I love Michelangelo
Lodovico Buonarrati-Simoni and spent an hour at the Vatican weeping in front of the Pieta until
my friend dragged me away. It was an overwhelming first person art experience. But then, I like
Peter Max, Matt Groening, and almost any artist who is a dedicated iconoclast (shades of R. Crumb!).
Q: Do you have a favorite group/musician? who?
I love music, period. Medieval, baroque, classical, romantic, impressionistic, post
impressionistic, show-tunes, old blues, swing jazz, fusion jazz, r&b, pop, classical rock, hard
rock, death metal rock, and the Seattle grunge sound. I listen to all of it, and can play most of it,
too. About the only thing I'm not too keen on is country western and rap, and I even like some of
that if the singer is any good. Would it help if I said I was a dedicated Led Head as a wee
sprite? I've never gotten over my love affairs with Page and Plant, Robin Trower and Jimi
Hendrix. A great guitar player can turn me into a puddle of mush. But then again, so can Artur
Rubenstein's recording of Rachmaninoff's Second Piano Concerto. Pure heaven.
Q: Do you have a favorite Bumper Sticker?
"Keep your rosaries out of my ovaries" is right up at the top of my list.
Q: If you drew a picture to represent your mind, body and spirit, what would you draw?
A little butterfly colored with every color in the rainbow, flying over a field of flowers dancing
in a gentle breeze. Life is a very happy place to be.
Thank you so much for your interest in my book.
Elizabeth Hazel